Curse

Muspellsheimr · Oct 10, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Perhaps a classless system would work better for GW's character development?

I have said it several times before - they should remove class and levels, and replace it with a point-based character generation & advancement system. I would point them to Shadowrun 4ed & World of Darkness for ideas. This would also give them significantly more leeway in balancing skills, qualities, & races.

Mineria · Oct 10, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

As to persistence, instancing brought me to GW, all you have to do is look at local chat (yes, turn it on for a few minutes, I know it's painful) to see why I'd rather not have those people intruding on my game experience.

You got a very good point there.

TaCktiX · Oct 11, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Yes, I've got a very clear idea of the goals of Guild Wars 2 and what they're bringing to the table. In some way, the team at ArenaNet will deliver the best game they possibly can. As for the grind complaint voiced, that's one of the major reasons they're making Guild War 2: the game was just getting too complex to keep on adding onto (March 07 PC Gamer).

I want to see more solid details, more "features." I know it's still early stage, relatively, but some details that won't change no matter what would be nice. It's my belief that GW:EN was as expansion-oriented as it was, because so much work and effort was being poured in GW2. I doubt I'll be disappointed.

arcanemacabre · Oct 11, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

I have said it several times before - they should remove class and levels, and replace it with a point-based character generation & advancement system. I would point them to Shadowrun 4ed & World of Darkness for ideas. This would also give them significantly more leeway in balancing skills, qualities, & races.

Yes! WoD FTW! Don't worry, the guys over at CCP (creators of EVE online) are working on a WoD MMO as we speak. Depending on how well it's done, I might entirely forego any more GW, monthly fee or not. Their tabletop system is pure gold, at least for a role-player, not a "roll-player."

I like Phinney's ideas, but like many other things - it looks good on paper, but does it translate well?

Kahlindra · Oct 11, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Yes! WoD FTW!

Also find this a very interesting idea- certainly character development will be one of the ways in which GW2 really has to excel if it wants to offer something special. That system offers some good lessons.

I sounds really creative and promising, I'm just not sure how I feel about persistent play yet. I will definitely be postponing purchasing 2 until I see quite a bit of fan feedback, i.e. the opinions of long-term players who have made the transition, not just any gamers' views. Not because I am disillusioned or pessimistic, I just don't want to ruin my own GW experience.

A11Eur0 · Oct 11, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

Which they unfortunately must have ignored or gave up on. Every game has had more grind than its predecessor. I'm sorry, but GW:EN is a "game full of grind." And at this rate, and with the talk of possibly no level caps, I have no faith that GW2 will return to their original design of skill over time spent.

Very good point...it feels like they tested grind on the GW player population little by little, each chapter was a furthering of said grind experiment. Factions: grinding faction to continue the story, just a little bit though. Nightfall: same thing, but now you have to collect a number of some items for some quests, and introduced PvE skills that rely on SS/LB rank to be as powerful as similar profession related skills that go off of attribute, which is maxed out early on. GWEN took grind to the next level in requiring it to access ALL the new features of the game...new weapons, consumables, and armors. Hall of Monuments displays only the most prestigious items and titles...all of which are grind based. Destroyer weapons only: need to grind to afford them. Need to repeat dungeons or farm money to obtain the gemstones required. New armor pieces that require exorbitant amounts of collector items that need to be farmed for or paid for. These HoM entries will affect the future accounts of GW2. Those who didn't grind will suffer in comparison. Those who grinded will have more stuff to /rank on the casual players with.

in the mix of all that they added titles that made even prophecies grind-based in some fashion.

Enough is enough. Don't pour honey in our ears while at the same time doing exactly what it is you swore not to do from the BEGINNING.

Bar Fight · Oct 11, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

im going to avoid any information prior to release of this. Im not going to preorder, i may buy collectors ed (if available) but i probably will not buy this until a month into play when people are either already sick of it, or absolutely love it. (i still haven't bought gw:en and i will not) The transition from PvP/PvE to PvE is bugging me. In my Honest Opinion, they are slowly killing the BEST PvP and PvE balanced game i have ever played, turning it into another PvE grindfest. Once PvE characters got separated from being able to be truely usefull in PvP i think the game started to fail. PvP'ers have about 4 titles they can actually gain if they strictly pvp. Pve'ers have like 50. So until i get more information, most importantly Players thoughts on the game i will be waiting and not readin.

Zorgy · Oct 11, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

If anyone can make it happen, it's these guys. They really 'deserve' to be a success in my eyes... But then I've seen it so many times before.

The sad thing is I need to believe that these guys can actually do it, that someone 'can' and 'will' push the boundaries. Day by day I see more evidence to the contrary. This industry is truly full of so much shit...

100% ok with you but I believe in Anet creative power, faith cannot be explained = you have it or not

They will do it, I know it since I started to play GW & I am happy after reading James Phinney.

Do it wtf !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maedhros · Oct 11, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I hope these ideas translate directly from text to game, but I have not much faith anymore: the reason why I bought GW and all its campaigns was because it is one of the game that has the less grinding, a statement becoming less and less true each day.

GW is simply great! The thing is that its greatness tarnishes even though I would play GW over many other games. Keep it skill over time spent! Keep on the good job, and we will buy this game. Keep the good things, further remove grinding.

Please continue making such great games as GW. But please don't switch to another school of thought, we loved it how it was.

Only my 2 cents,
~Maedhros

semantic · Oct 11, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Nice to see storage and trade on the upgrade list. Frankly, I'm totally stoked to see the new skill system after their previous references to context-based emergent complexity stuff and stuff. I can only vaguely imagine what they are talking about, but if the guys who designed the GW skill system are hyped about it, so am I.

oh, and Dragonzzz

VanDamselx · Oct 11, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by I MP I

A nice dreamy vision for a future mmo. Personally I predict (yes its too early to tell, just expressing my own thoughts) it'll be really awesome at first (like prophecies), then the nerfs will come. Then come new imba professions with chapters that have a less than exciting/interesting storyline. Then people rage quit. History has long been known to repeat itself. Maybe this game will indeed be different. I'll remain neutral till I've played the beta version.

I think they're doing away with the whole chapter model, hence GW:EN.

I'm really not afraid of GW2, I know the dev team will do a fabulous job.

I think if they continue with expansions, rather than chapters, imba won't be an issue. I hope that is the route they're taking, and I hope expansions are either more 'expandable' or price adjusted.

Crom The Pale · Oct 11, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

I am a dreamer....

I still dream of a game that lets me explore the wounderfull environment of GW to its fullest and still has options for adventure and storys.

IF they are able to build a new system to link PvP and PvE, that would eliminate any need for nerfing skills(PvE wise at least) then I for one will love GW2.

IF they can build a persistant world where I can meet freinds and random people while not being overwhelmed by spam or have my loot stolen or my corpse camped, I will love GW2.

IF they can raise or elimiate the lvl cap without forcing massive grind inorder to reach certain areas of play and still let my hard work and time spent playing mean something significant, then I will love GW2.

IF they can do this and more, then everyone will love GW2.

thunderai · Oct 11, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

Nice to see storage and trade on the upgrade list. Frankly, I'm totally stoked to see the new skill system after their previous references to context-based emergent complexity stuff and stuff. I can only vaguely imagine what they are talking about, but if the guys who designed the GW skill system are hyped about it, so am I.

oh, and Dragonzzz

I would imgien they would be grown up versions of the spirit skills in EotN. In that what the skill does depends on what or who is around you. Not just you turn into the spirit of a wolf but maybe you turn into a wolf and your skill set is composed of a combination of your set skill bar and the wolfs basic skill bar.

You could make some interesting situations where you HAVE to turn into a wolf to track down the smell of a dragon, etc. Nothing people with EotN havnt done already.

trielementz · Oct 11, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderai

You could make some interesting situations where you HAVE to turn into a wolf to track down the smell of a dragon, etc. Nothing people with EotN havnt done already.

they'll need to incorporate randomness much better for it to have any real meaning. the nornbear quest was just wrong... you can run to the set positions without the blessing and still clear the quest. more meaningful randomness will increase the fun factor for me..

Muspellsheimr · Oct 11, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Yes! WoD FTW! Don't worry, the guys over at CCP (creators of EVE online) are working on a WoD MMO as we speak. Depending on how well it's done, I might entirely forego any more GW, monthly fee or not. Their tabletop system is pure gold, at least for a role-player, not a "roll-player."

I brought WoD up because it's advancement is virtualy identical to that of Shadowrun, and it is a great example of priority-based point-buy systems. However, I only play it for the setting & atmosphere - as far as gaming systems goes, Shadowrun Fourth is far superior, although quite similar. Brought up Shadowrun as a prime example for a non-priority point system, as well as how to provide effective balance for playable races in such a system.

EDIT:
Do you know what WoD games will be included in this MMO? The game I'm playing in at the moment is running a combo of Forsaken, Awakening, & Requiem, and I would love to see something similar in this MMO (assuming they are able to preserve the feel of the game adequately).
/EDIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

WTF? Unique? Oversized Gnolls with horns are unique? Or, if you prefer, Palladium Wolfen with horns is unique?

Yeah... Not all us gamers only know what we see in GW or WoW as 'fantasy' kiddo. Some of us have been gamers longer than this guy has been alive.

I think they call it unique because they are based of felines, rather than canines. However, I do agree with you on this.

arcanemacabre · Oct 11, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

I brought WoD up because it's advancement is virtualy identical to that of Shadowrun, and it is a great example of priority-based point-buy systems. However, I only play it for the setting & atmosphere - as far as gaming systems goes, Shadowrun Fourth is far superior, although quite similar. Brought up Shadowrun as a prime example for a non-priority point system, as well as how to provide effective balance for playable races in such a system.

EDIT:
Do you know what WoD games will be included in this MMO? The game I'm playing in at the moment is running a combo of Forsaken, Awakening, & Requiem, and I would love to see something similar in this MMO (assuming they are able to preserve the feel of the game adequately).
/EDIT

I've never played Shadowrun, but of the tabletops I have played, I found WoD to be the best system because of how fluid it is. The point-buy system is simply awesome, and I think can translate well to MMO's.

Not much, or rather, hardly anything is known about the WoD MMO, yet. They are keeping it pretty hush-hush, but since the new books came out, they've been pretty devoted to that world and pretty much ditched the old world - which is fine by me since the old world had, dare I say it, too much lore that it stagnated and crippled GM creativity. The new WoD is much more wide open, while still infused with a ton of background lore. I'm willing to bet it will be based on this. So yeah, Forsaken, Requiem, Awakening, and their new one, Promethean will probably be the focus of the MMO.

About the Charr, they really aren't terribly new, but the concept is perhaps new to mainstream fantasy. Ya know, compared to the other creatures they have - centaurs, dwarves, dragons, trolls, etc. On another note, I realize the Tengu are based on some classic mythical creatures, but they are also new to the mainstream fantasy, and I think many of us would love the chance to play one... please?

Muspellsheimr · Oct 11, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Sorry for de-railing the thread, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I've never played Shadowrun, but of the tabletops I have played, I found WoD to be the best system because of how fluid it is. The point-buy system is simply awesome, and I think can translate well to MMO's.

Shadowrun is very similar in the manner of dice pools & successes, excepting it uses d6. The main difference is everything is opposed rolls for resistance tests, rather than reductions to a dice pool. Granted, there are some reductions, but those are specific modifiers. Also, weapons have a base damage value dealt, modified by success's, instead of simply adding dice. And you reduce damage taken by your successes on Armor+Body Attribute, instead of armor reducing the attacker's pool. On paper, it looks far more complex, but in practice, it is the most effective and smoothest tabletop system I have played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

So yeah, Forsaken, Requiem, Awakening, and their new one, Promethean will probably be the focus of the MMO.

Changeling: the Lost has been out for a bit as well. I'm still waiting for updated Hunter...

draxynnic · Oct 11, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

I think they call it unique because they are based of felines, rather than canines. However, I do agree with you on this.

Kilrathi with horns, then.

It's very hard to be COMPLETELY original in fantasy, though. The Charr are... close enough. At least, despite some similarities in behaviour, they aren't Orcs all over again (just like Grawls aren't goblins all over again...)

What I'm hoping for is a system by which you can choose whether to go into a particular are instanced or persistant. That way, if you want to be sociable you can, but if you don't want to put up with the griefers, you can avoid them.

On levelling without grind - I'd prefer a low cap or levelless system, but it probably CAN be done if they give enough stuff to do while gaining experience so it doesn't feel like grind, rather than just being full of "kill five rats" or "collect five rat tails" - style quests, Fed-Ex-style quests, and general "go out and kill random monsters for no reason until you advance" behaviour.

Ooops, GWEN is already full of the last...

Redfeather1975 · Oct 11, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

If it ever gets to the point where I can count how many enemies I have to beat or quests I have to complete before I power up, I will no longer play. I have gotten bored of those types of games. Those game only use levels as a restriction on advancement.

Kotetsu Rain · Oct 11, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Back in 05, does anyone else remember Guild Wars being described as more of a CEORPG (Competitve Online Role-Playing Game) than a typical MMORPG?